Writing Online- Grammar Police Arrests
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This Hub is in response to the question below:
“Do you edit your writing prior to publishing it? Your grammar is horrible!”
(asked by a Hubber on the right hand side of my page)
The question was directed at someone else. I have witnessed this scenario before when someone had a go at a Hubber because of poor English. This was about 8 months ago. A lot of people including myself got upset about it and posted our comments to her:
Her Comment in response to his posting in Forums:
“Seriously, I cannot even fathom how HubPages could promote a score of 89 to a "writer" who has such horrific grammatical and spelling errors in the above few sentences.
Before you even consider "writing" anything else, please get a grasp of the English language”
Our comments and Full Forum post: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/21166#post374949
Click Here: Another similar Forum post. ....and there are many more.
Hubpages is a platform for everyone to write and not every one has English as their first Language. Some, come to Hubpages with the intention of actually improving their English. Learning English Language is difficult to as the word order in other languages is very different. Example: I have asked a foreign person to translate this saying “I like London very much”. (I said it and asked her to write it). She wrote: I like very much London, because she translated it in word order from her Language.
I have also been on the other side before. Years ago, before I travelled on Holiday to Barcelona, I took some Spanish classes for about a month. Well, when I arrived in Barcelona, the people spoke to me so fast, my head couldn’t even process it, let alone get my Spanish words out in the correct order. I looked dazed and ended up speaking in English most of the time. Learning languages takes time.
So, as to Hubbers that write with poor Grammar, I think we should let them write because
a) They may be here to make money.
b) They might just want to write for therapy - writing can be therapeutic.
c) They are writing to improve their English, but not particularly interested in Adsense.
Let's not lash out at them and give them a chance. They say, "practice makes perfect." If however, you are itching to correct Grammar, then there are constructive ways of doing so. Maybe you could drop them a friendly email, offer to edit their Hub before publishing or refer them to some good English Grammar books or websites.
Is it possible for people whose first language is not English to write Good Hubs?
Definitely! Check out the following Hubbers:
** Prasetio30
** Hypnodude
** Dohn121
Ps. If you know any ladies, let me know, so I can update the Hub.
All the Hubbers above, have their Hubs featured on the Home Page weekly.That’s how good their writing is. I also hope any one reading, who is facing English Language challenges finds these Hubbers encouraging.
So, in a Nutshell – could we layoff the handcuffs.
Update: after reading the comments Purple Perl is another good writer whose first Language is not English. She has also shared this link for those who want to learn English online. http://hubpages.com/hub/How-To-Learn-English-Online (Thanks PP)
More, who have come forward in the comments box: (Thank you, ladies)
.
** A short note to Grammerpolice. P/s don't feel bad about this Hub. The fact that I wrote, it doesn't change my Hublove towards you. :)
.
Finally, my response to the question was...
I hope the above Grammar will not get me arrested.
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This is my first writing on english in this site. I choose hubpages becouse of big opportunity he give me. Thanks for suport.
I remember that forum post well, Lady E - a mixture of comedy and horror.
As somebody who tries (badly) to communicate in a second language everyday, I respect anybody with the guts to try to publish with ESL. The only hubs that I flag for poor English are the ones that have been through translation software.
Good Hub!
** Thanks for your support Pete. Regards.
** Thank you Fenrisiys, I hope you enjoy writing on Hubpages. Do drop me a line if you need any help. Best Wishes.
** Hi Sufidreamer - It was comedy and horror. It was funny how Hubbers then started correcting the English of the person pointing fingers. lol. Thanks so much for your comments.
Nice, truthful hub. Although I have made a few mistakes myself, some sites are just downright unreadable. And when you cant read them, it makes it hard to understand them. Thank you for sharing this hub.
I enjoyed every bit of all you said Lady_E,the fact is that even an English man makes mistakes sometimes while writing in English, that is why we have GRAMMATICAL ERROR.This is an English word and not my own language,i might not be perfect with my vocab but that doesn't mean that the dictionary has more in store.You kept me going until i got to your answer to the question then i exploded with laughter...You got it right "I visit your hub soon to learn good proper english".
I have a friend just like the cop here,she is my lover and i will bring her to hubpage next week.Hope to see you smile at her Lady_E.Cheers!
I agree with you! When I run across a hub that has poor grammar, or the paragraphs are out of line I e-mail them personally letting them know I would be happy to assist them if necessary. I cordially explain to them where the spellcheck is located on the capsule. I have found that many do not have any idea where it was located or what it was for so I assist them. All of us make grammatical error, sentence error, etc. Each and every writer is our eyes so that all of us can imporve our writing skills.
Let people be express themselves and we would find that as the months progress there writing skills improve.
What a well written hub! :)
I enjoyed every bit of all you said Lady_E,the fact is that even an English man makes mistakes sometimes while writing in English, that is why we have GRAMMATICAL ERROR.This is an English word and not my own language,i might not be perfect with my vocab but that doesn't mean that the dictionary has more in store.You kept me going until i got to your answer to the question then i exploded with laughter...You got it right "I visit your hub soon to learn good proper english".
I have a friend just like the cop here,she is my lover and i will bring her to hubpage next week.Hope to see you smile at her Lady_E.Cheers!
It is certainly a challenge for non English speakers to write grammatically correct hubs. But, like you pointed out, Lady_E, there are several who have mastered it and churn out great hubs consistently.
Myself,being Indian,write in English because the medium of instruction in school & college was English.
For those who wish to learn English online, I have put together this hub,http://hubpages.com/hub/How-To-Learn-English-Onlin
This is a wake-up call hub. We should all try to edit our hubs before publishing.
It is generally accepted that democracy is a good thing
so, what choice is left ?
democratic average quality (inclusive)
authoritative upper quality (exclusive)
HP is definitely inclusive.
Both of us are native English speakers (Pat is American; Tricia is English). Sometimes we make grammatical errors and more often spelling mistakes.
We are full of admiration for those who write in English as a second language. Pat studied German for 3 years and still speaks very slowly, with the words in the wrong order. It would take her a full working week to write a Hub in German, and the word order would still be incorrect.
It is easy to find fault and much harder to help. But helping others can make us better people.
Good answer, Lady E!
"Thank you Fenrisiys, I hope you enjoy writing on Hubpages. Do drop me a line if you need any help. Best Wishes."
I alredy enjoyed and tanks for suport and help!
English is a very hard language to learn. In English there are many words spelled exactly the same but are pronounced differently and have different meanings. Every one deserves a chance to learn and write here. No matter how they do it, just that they do.
Thanks Lady E...I am Afrikaans...here in South Africa it's just the same mess when English people try to speak Afrikaans..I try my best..I couldn't find any decent free grammar software to use...Microsoft Word only gives red lines for spelling and green lines for grammar..so when I tried a few variations and the line is still green...well then I'm frustrated and leave the thing as is and hope God will assist me to make people understand what I was trying to say... :)
All of us need help and encouragement along the way.
Would it be a good idea to insert next to the spelling capsule a grammar capsule? I think it would also upgrade the quality of hubs and help people straightaway.
I have been living in England for 45 years and still have now and then problems. I went to college to learn English over here and set for The Lowere Cambridge Examination, which is for Foreign people, and passed it. Thank you, Lady E, for writing such a kind hub. By the way you asked for ladies who are writing in English as a second language -- I am.
I think using the hub to speak, even if their language is not English, is a very good tool. My native language is Afrikaans much like Flemish, in fact almost exactly the same. Same as Marliza.
I write in English as a second language. Jury's out on the lady thing, though :-)
I think you're very kind in your position, and I tend to agree, I would just have a bit of an issue with "advice" hubs, for example hub explaining how to compose a business case. How are you going to feel about the advice given if it's full of typos or grammar errors? I mean, the content loses credibility for me.
Lady E, great hub and i (I use small i on purpose) agree totally that we are here to cheer each other on. We are not in school and should not feel "Bullied" by those who are biased or think themselves elite. Offer a helping hand as suggested.
Personally i write my hubs on WORD first, using a compatible font,(Georgia/12/normal) where the WORD program offers me spellcheck and some grammer correction. Then even though i proof it a number of times i still miss things, so i have my wife proof it because she has a keen eye and a sharp mind for catching things i might miss.
i commend those who are brave enough to at least try to write, let alone write in another language. Many struggle with these examples... There, their, they're; they all sound the same, but as WE know have three seperate meanings. i have a woman from Iran in one of my groups who sent me an email and i had to decode it first to get the gist of what she was actually trying to say to me.
So let's be helpfull. Thx St.L.
Well said. And congrats for making a stand.
Well written logical response.Glad to find such an outstanding hub from you and thank you so much for taking a stand.I guess Dohn121 is a classic example of how good a non-English speaker's writing can be,hats off to you.
I live in France so I know first hand how difficult it can be to grasp a second language. I hate to think of all the errors I would make if I tried to write in the French language.
So you are absolutely right, we need to make allowances for people writing outside of their native tongue and focus on their content rather than their grammar.
** Thanks fits4life. I make spelling mistakes too but notice them after maybe the 5th time I've read the Hub. Thanks for stopping.
** Hi Rossimobis, I agree with you. Nobody is perfect. Make you make sure you bring your friend. I go dey happy if una come visit. I go find something nice to entertain una, so tey, una go belle full. lol. Best Wishes.
** Hello AnneEvans, thats so kind of you. As you noted, over the months, their writing skills will improve - Thanks to you. :)
** Changtian - your comment is the same as what Rossimobis wrote and I have responded to him. I'm guessing you're his Twin. lol. :)
** Purple Perl - so nice to read your comments. I appreciate the Link and will insert it in the Hub later. Shukuria. :)
Thank you, thank you, thank you Lady E! I find some people's way of writing absolutely charming, regardless of whether it's "correct" or not. I noticed you mentioned Prasetio30 and he is one of my faves.
** Thanks Philipo, we should try to. I do it in MS Word before copying over to HP. Regards.
** Zampano, Its been such a long day for me today, so much so - my head is not screwed on tightly enough to understand your comments at the moment. However, I really appreciate you stopping by. :)
** Thanks 2patricias for your encouraging comments. German is one of the hardest languages to speak. I speak a few words in many languages but nothing in German. So, well done Pat. Regards to you both.
** Thanks Fishtiger for your encouraging comments. I totally agree with you. Best Wishes.
** Hi Marliza, I enjoy your Hubs and didn't even know English was your second language. Well Done. (Essential Grammar for English by Raymond Murphy is one of the best English Self Study books).... and I'm here too.
Best Wishes. :)
** Hi Support Med, we all do. I did a Hub on football sometime and thankfully someone corrected me because I wrote Paul Rooney on it, instead of the Footballer Wayne Rooney. Nice to see you again. :)
** Hi Hello Hello. I thought you were a man. These Avatars make me guess wrong. Lol. Congrats on passing your Cambridge Exam. I will add your name to the Hub to encourage people.
As to the suggestion – I have posted it in Forums where such suggestions are looked into. There is a Forum for it. See posting below, incase Hubpages or other Hubbers comment or give feed back. Best Wishes. http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/39850
** Hoowantstono, I agree – it is a very good Tool. Thanks for stopping.
** Hi my name sake, Elena. Regarding your comment on giving advice while there are so many typos and mistakes in the Hub – sadly, that is worrying. The best thing to do obviously would be not to adhere to that advice, as it’s not convincing. Thanks for your comments. I will add your name to the list in the Hub too, so people can be encouraged. Regards.
** Thanks Saintatlarge for your supporting comments. You are lucky your wife helps you. I’m positive you are sharing that Adsense together. Best Wishes. :)
Elena, I appreciate and agree with your suggestion of gentle tolerance--not only with grammar, but original content. Sometimes others can be fairly cruel under the guise of "being helpful," and I am forced to wonder what the point is.
I liken HubPages to an art gallery in some respects; if my artwork were to hang in a gallery next to a Picasso, do I think Picasso (were he alive to do so) would object to exhibiting in the same gallery as me? Probably not--I think he would be worried about his next painting, not wondering what I'm doing. He's not going to think I'm bringing him down--his work stands on its own.
HubPages (and the Internet in general) is a huge gallery and, frankly, there is room on the wall for all of us.
Thanks for again being a voice of reason.
Mike
Hello Lady E. This is a great hub. I firmly believe that non-native writers can master our language as well as anyone, and proud of those that do. Yes it may be difficult, but then things that are worth doing usually are. Some typos that I see are done by native writers, and I fight the urge to correct them. Be well.
I know that I would have terrible spelling and grammar mistakes if I was trying to write in a language that was not native to me. I applaud anyone who writes in English as their second language (or third, or fourth)!
thank you for your support Lady E. I join in this HP 4 months ago but this new one last month I dare to write my hub. It's all because of my doubts about my english not so good and are still very few vocabulary words, considering English is not my first language. Even at my profile, I mentioned that I was not very good at writing this I mean to make people understand that I tried everything I could to convey the contents of my hubs to others.
My dearest Elena...
I felt sad when I read this hub. Some people just do not understand what relationships are all about. I haven´t even seen great writers here at Hub`s who would criticize fellow hubbers for a bad usage of grammar. I guess that " Grammar police" may know lots of grammar but knows nothing about socializing and humility!
Great hub!
Thumbs up!
warmest regards and infinite blessings,
Al
** Thanks Character - for your comments.
** Andromida, thanks so much for your kind comments. :)
** Merci Brian S. I appreciate you stopping by. I agree we should make allowances. Regards.
** Cheers Happyher, I'm glad Prasetio30 is one of your favourites. The topics of his Hubs are very unique too. Thanks.
** Hi Mike, I like the Picasso example you used. There is room for all of us. Regards.
** Thanks Fgual, for your encouraging comments. Best Wishes.
** Hi Rachel B, interesting point - for some, English is a 3rd language. Thanks for stopping.
** Hello Ratri, thanks for your comments. Please do not be afraid to write. I don't mind checking it for you before you publish, if you email it to me. I used to do this for a Hubber months ago. There are many other people who are willing to support you on HP. Read through the comments on this Hub and you will notice. Contact any of them via email too, if you want. Good luck. :)
Helloooooo Mystique. Thanks for your comments. Nice to read from your again. Infinite Blessings to you too. (I love that phrase). :)
"grammErpolice?" Seriously now, if anything, that hubber needs some spelling advice him/herself. But, Lady_E, that is certainly not my point. I am in complete agreement with you that people have various reasons for writing on HubPages and should be treated with kindness and respect.
As in all human interaction, tolerance is golden!
Poor English is difficult to read because it takes time to figure out the meaning and people - myself included - are impatient. However, well done to the people who can write in a second language. I certainly can't and I imigine it's very hard.
** True Lorlie, people write for various reasons. Thanks for stopping. Best Wishes. :)
** Cheers Rick, I appreciate your comments. Regards.
superb
Excellent as always!
First the obvious part: thanks, thanks, and thanks for mentioning me in such a beautiful way, you've really given me a great honor.
Then the funny part: say thanks you don't hear me talking in English.:)
Then the grateful part: to my English Teachers and my mum who sent me in a school were almost all the lessons, and final exams were in English. This gave me the opportunity to love English. And to my love for reading which gave me the ability that with some errors most of the times I can read and write without a dictionary. Plus as you said those friendly hubbers, like you, who are always ready to help with a good advice.
Last you've made an error in this hub: it's simply impossible that Dohn hasn't English as his first language. Sorry but I can't believe it.
Thanks Lady_E. You're simply great.:)
Oh, rated and stumbled.
** Cheers Ashakan.
** Hi Nancy, thanks for stopping. Regards. :)
** Hola Hypnodude, thanks for your interesting Hubs and warm comments too. I didn't make an error in the Hub. Lol. If you read the first part of Dohn's Hub: http://hubpages.com/hub/do-you-know-kung-fu-some-m
He wrote English was his second language.
Mantenere il buono lavoro. Regards.
I always try to take in consideration...
1. That English may not be their first language.
2. They they may have a disability
3. I am no where near perfect and cannot cast any stones.
Great Hub!
great hub. Enjoyed reading it very much.
Great hub. It points out a problem that some people have with criticism. The only criticism in writing should be constructive criticism. It's easy to point out someone's mistakes, but it's much harder to be nice and show someone how to correct them. I can usually spot mistakes pretty easily, but I never would insult someone about it.
Ok, you were right. Happy Easter!:)
A Good Hub, Lady E. Yes, tolerate is the word. Give everyone a chance. But it is a good idea like 'Saintatlarge' said above to write on Word first, correct the text as much as possible and then publish on Hubs. One mistake that I do not like seeing is the wrong use of "your" even on well written pages. For example: Your going to make tons of money - which should be "you're" an abbreviation of 'you are'.
Give people a chance. If you do not like what you read, leave the page. Cheers everyone.
** Cheers Sabreblade. Thanks for your comments - good to read from you. :)
** Thanks very much dpfitzell. Nice of you to stop by.
** MJFande thanks for your encouraging comments. Regards.
** Cheers again, Hypnodude. :)
** New Horizons, thanks so much for your comments. I actually do that "your/you're" error. It's because I type so fast, but sometimes correct it when proof reading. You're right, we should give people a chance, including me. lol. Best Wishes.
Guilty as charged for deliberate bad grammar mistakes but hey bring that chick at the start with her handcuffs for me, oh yeah !
Ha-ha! Now, this was a hub, comments included, that was full of funny English! Yeah, I don't like the police either; too many senseless laws! ;)
** Lol Tattoguy. I'll bring her and her Twin sister. Nice to read from you. Hope all is well in Ireland. :)
** Cheers Obscurely Diverse, thanks for stopping. :)
English is the No.1 international language and therfore the language of growth!! It is thus befitting that everyone is given a chance without minding much about their language prowess!! The key is in understanding what the other person is trying to express .. Mark my word, we will all grow as more and more people around the globe gets to understand one another!!
Its not a crime not to know something. On the contrary we should applaud the effort these people are putting in to get across their message!! We must also understand that it must be taking these persons extra effort and more time to write their pieces so the more we encourage the better they will get!!
Wonderful hub on a relevant issue!! :)
Totally agree with you dreamreachout; We should applaud their effort. Thanks so much for your comments.
Best Wishes.
Ps. How do I say: "Nice" in India/Hindi? The only word I know is Shukria. Thanks.
Shukria is actually urdu though much similar to hindi!! Thanks in hindi would be DHANYABAD!!
Nice in hindi would be "ACCHA"
I will charge next time you ask me something!! Lol!! :)
Aaaaah... I remember that word from many films I've watched. I remember hearing it, but didn't know it meant "nice".
You are very Accha. lol.
Thanks & have a great weekend.
What a great hub. I know even my writing has gotten better since getting here.
We need to stress more with encouragement. If people remained scared to write Hubpages would soon dry up and blow away.
Your hub is now posted on my blog. Great job.
Cheers
Dale
Thanks Dale, for your encouraging comments and for sharing it with others on your Blog. I agree we need to stress more with encouragement.
Best Wishes.
Lady, you are so kind person since you suggested to give chance for second language hubbers to practice English. I am one of them and trying my best. You are right, when they are writing or saying a sentence they think their native language not English. I know also that people whose English is their first language some of them do grammar mistakes although they speak fluently because it is their language. I am really more than happy if a friend contacts me through an email and tells me my mistakes. I would not see offend. Thank you for your advice, lady.
Thanks Neverletitgo - It's true even Native English speakers make mistakes. I hope you enjoy writing here.
Best Wishes, Elena.
I always edit my work. I am never really satisfied with what I write. I always go back even on old hubs and correct them, or try to improve them. But I enjoy it. I enjoy trying to improve my own work. I wish there were more handy little books around on punctuation. Maybe someday I will visit a high school and see if they have a few old English books they might want to give away or sell. GBY.OOPS! I forgot to say, Great Hub!
Hi Stars439 - its nice to know you are taking an interest on improving your writing skills. I enjoy everything you write and understand you clearly. :)
Thanks for stopping. Take Care. :)
Lady_E...
I have had my own run in with the Grammar police...Comma cops to be precise. I like what you have done here and the message, hopefully, will resound with those who are quick to flame and slow to support!
Great Job!
Thomas
@ThoughtSandwiches
Thanks for the support, Thomas. I hope you continue to enjoy writing online. Good Luck. :)
Pete Maida Level 1 Commenter 2 years ago
I admire all hubbers who write in English when it is not their first language. I can't imagine trying to write in another language. Since I'm not Mr. Perfect when it comes to grammar I would not lash out at anyone.
Actually, in my opinion, lashing out rudely for any reason is in bad taste and only reflects badly on the one lashing out.